When it comes to family, I think we tend to cut through the bullshit(skip the sandwich and head for desert).
Primarily because I know they can take it and since they are family the chances that they will break up with me, fire me, or ghost me—are pretty slim. However, for me, if my older brother who I’m super close with told me I was a piece of shit, that would be pretty detrimental because I trust him completely and thus I would take it harder because I trust his opinion.
I actually prefer “constructive criticism.” Shit sandwich makes me feel like, well, shit and like the positive things said aren’t actually true.
I grew up in Georgia. South of Atlanta. When I started figuring out I like women—in the 90s—I was taught that “these people” where pedophiles, praying on children. I remember being in 10th grade, looking in the mirror and trying to slap the gay out of myself.
Also, my Dad is retired deputy chief of Atlanta police and my mom is a retired journalist/reporter . They met at a crime scene(Red Flag!!.) I grew up with a lot of anger and fear in my house, where you had to get loud to be heard. I think then, they believed the best way to get us to do better or try harder was to point out only the stuff we did wrong. Needless to say at age 39 I am constantly looking for approval, as if I need reassurance that I am good enough. I’ve done some really amazing stuff in my life but I never take time to be proud of myself. That’s not punk rock. Punk rock isn’t just a genre. It’s not even about not caring what other people think. It’s about getting vulnerable, having hard conversations, particularly the ones that make me squirm, and finally—FINIALY feeling comfortable in my own skin (most days.)
Somebody once said that the Greats are only great because they don’t know they are great. ..If I thought I was the best then I prob wouldn’t try very hard and therefore sucked all along.
I don’t know if you are still in Georgia but that place will suck you dry. I go visit my mom once a year—she’s north of Atlanta in Marietta. Nothing about it feels very good or safe. I am constantly watching my 6 and wearing tighter clothes so I don’t stand out or get messed with. That is an awful feeling. Like I have to go back “in the closet of shame” to avoid dangerous confrontation. To feel like I can’t speak my truth and feel so helpless when I see all the ignorance that is breed there. I left in 2001 and still dealing with southern ptsd.
So yeah, no need to sugar coat the truth but most people are way more receptive to “constructive” conversation.
But it seems y’all are doing something right and we could all love the one we love —a little better, with kindness and tolerance-eh?
Ps I met y’all in Denver in 2002 at paramount theater, opening for Ryan Adams. You might remember us as the only people losing our shit dancing and singing. I was 19 and wasn’t thinking about the entire theater sitting down. Anyway, hope you forgot about that, in retrospect maybe we weren’t as cool as we thought. I love that y’all are constantly trying new things and it’s pretty amazing to listen to Under Feet Like Ours to present. -Kate
This reminds me so much of my sister and I. We are 13 months apart and I joke with her that I hoped she enjoyed her 13 months without me. Her opinions hit me differently then others.....is it the shared experiences and trauma and the strong emotions you go through growing up? Are we able to speak the truth to each other without the shit sandwich because they are your people? I like to think so.
Telling the people we love the truth because we love them and want them to become better people can be so difficult, especially knowing that it could hurt their feelings.
The love between a human and a fur baby is very special. I don’t have much experience with cats #allergies. But while I love my human children, sometimes they drive me nuts. My dogs on the other hand- love me unconditionally. I can go outside to take the trash out and they’re happy to see me when I come back inside. They love to give cuddles. My fur babies who are now deceased- one would sit on my lap and comfort me when I was crying after my ex husband would say unmentionable things to me and call me all sorts of names. He would lick the tears off my face. I still tear up when I think about his passing. (The dog not the ex). A dog is much more responsibility. You can’t just leave out food, water, litter box. They’re much more upkeep/ needy. But I wouldn’t give up my dogs for the world.
My husband is a musician, and over the course of our 16 years together, there have been 100s of songs offered up for my critique. Being someone’s “first listen” is a lot of pressure. Sometimes, I can physically feel the weight he places on my opinion. It’s a completely different energy than when he shares songs with his friends/bandmates. A friend could make the exact same comments as I had, but for some reason, when I made them, they hit harder and were construed as personal. I think it’s a good thing though. As uncomfortable as it can feel sometimes, I would hate it if he no longer cared. Good luck with this. Thanks for sharing.
I was always being served "shit sandwiches" by my college English professors. Submitting essays for proof reading and editing was always a point of contention for me. Every time I turned in a paper I'd jokingly quote Erykah Badu "Now keep in mind that I'm an artist. And I'm sensitive about my shit." My professors were kind enough to mark up my papers in purple or blue ink instead of red. I was usually receptive to their feedback, but I'd still butt heads and dig in my heels when it came to editing out parts that expressed how i felt and gave the paper personality. After bitching and moaning in my room for an hour or so i'd make some of the changes.
As a solo artist leaning into collaborative efforts, this thread of conversation you and Tegan are just now having on the creative process resonates so much with my struggles of trusting myself muchless other folks' perception of my work's end product. The struggle of the tightrope balancing act of being too close to a project vs. trusting your gut after all of these years...and then compound it with the trust gymnastics you have to perform with a creative team. Its a big ask, but in the end it'll work out. Either you outdo yourself or you fall and learn some new lessons for the next chapter. Glad y'all are making new and exciting chapters in a multitude of ways!!
Wait... you mean to tell me that you all have food allergies and body issues like the rest of us middle aged cool kids, and you aren't writing about it? When are we going to hear about that shit? Because as cool as a summer anthem is, I'd just love to know someone else fights with their body and being a sack of human goo too. Where's my, "I can't eat that!" anthem! Just saying.
Thanks for making me laugh out loud this morning. I was allergic to orange juice when I was a kid. If I was going to write a song about it, the title “OJ and Me” would definitely be misinterpreted.
Wait, have you ever written anything about Mickey and Holiday?
Pain and rejection are pretty good sources for art. But if the art you make is the reason for pain, things can get difficult real quick! I am in awe of your vulnerability towards each other, in your songwriting and in your reflections here.
Maybe substack is a perfect place for shit sandwiches :)
Ps. I got notified earlier today by my phone that 5 years today you were in Amsterdam playing at Paradiso! I think it may have been your last time you came over here? Miss you loads!
Hi Flo! I haven't written directly about the cats, no. I do feel passionately about them, and they were certainly disruptive to my life. I do worry about their deaths, but haven't found inspiration to write about that.
Isn't this a pretty common sibling issue. I'm a brutally honest person but I do sugar coat it when I'm around strangers or acquaintances. But with family and close friends and my girlfriend I speak my truth^^ PS the combination of audio and words brings me back to my childhood. So many stories I've heard in this format.
Perhaps it is? Feels especially acute between the two of us, likely because of our work/art collaboration. I am definitely more delicate with my partner. :)
Feb 8, 2022·edited Feb 8, 2022Liked by Tegan and Sara
So great to hear your voice and thoughts on the writing process for the new record as well as your reactions to each others feedback. Makes me even more excited to hear what you have created 🔥
As an “artist” myself (and I use that term loosely!) I resonate that sometimes you really have to dig deep and push through boundaries to find that spark that brings everything to life. And sometimes the journey is just as important as the destination.
Thanks for writing these. Really enjoying reading and listening to them ❤️x
Love that Georgia could be a source for inspiration. Would love a post from Tegan with more insight into how Georgia has changed things for her, what's she brought into her life and what she's learned so far / about herself & her partner from having a dog. thanks
Thank you for sharing your vulnerability and a slight insight into your psyche. It's all so intertwined, isn't it? As siblings, artists, creators, business partners...so many added layers of complexity to "make things work". I'm sure it's challenging and not rosy and fine and dandy all the time, but...to borrow a quote from the TV show "One Tree Hilll": "Your art matters." We all love just about whatever you both allow us to consume. =)
Btw, not sure if either of you know, but Hilarie Burton (who played "Peyton Sawyer" in "One Tree Hill") is a huge T&S fan and claims in one of the "Drama Queens" podcast installment (where Hilarie, Sophia Bush & Joy Lenz talk about each OTH episode) that she desperately tried to get T&S to come perform in one of the OTH episodes but that it never happened for whatever reason and is still so bummed about it till this day. Maybe there's still time to make this happen in some way, shape or form... =)
I feel like the toughest shit sandwiches are always family, some are tougher than others but it's always going to hurt to have someone you love (or maybe not) criticize you. But it's always better to know they're telling you what it is and not what you want to hear so you can only do one thing. IMPROVE
When it comes to family, I think we tend to cut through the bullshit(skip the sandwich and head for desert).
Primarily because I know they can take it and since they are family the chances that they will break up with me, fire me, or ghost me—are pretty slim. However, for me, if my older brother who I’m super close with told me I was a piece of shit, that would be pretty detrimental because I trust him completely and thus I would take it harder because I trust his opinion.
I actually prefer “constructive criticism.” Shit sandwich makes me feel like, well, shit and like the positive things said aren’t actually true.
I grew up in Georgia. South of Atlanta. When I started figuring out I like women—in the 90s—I was taught that “these people” where pedophiles, praying on children. I remember being in 10th grade, looking in the mirror and trying to slap the gay out of myself.
Also, my Dad is retired deputy chief of Atlanta police and my mom is a retired journalist/reporter . They met at a crime scene(Red Flag!!.) I grew up with a lot of anger and fear in my house, where you had to get loud to be heard. I think then, they believed the best way to get us to do better or try harder was to point out only the stuff we did wrong. Needless to say at age 39 I am constantly looking for approval, as if I need reassurance that I am good enough. I’ve done some really amazing stuff in my life but I never take time to be proud of myself. That’s not punk rock. Punk rock isn’t just a genre. It’s not even about not caring what other people think. It’s about getting vulnerable, having hard conversations, particularly the ones that make me squirm, and finally—FINIALY feeling comfortable in my own skin (most days.)
Somebody once said that the Greats are only great because they don’t know they are great. ..If I thought I was the best then I prob wouldn’t try very hard and therefore sucked all along.
I don’t know if you are still in Georgia but that place will suck you dry. I go visit my mom once a year—she’s north of Atlanta in Marietta. Nothing about it feels very good or safe. I am constantly watching my 6 and wearing tighter clothes so I don’t stand out or get messed with. That is an awful feeling. Like I have to go back “in the closet of shame” to avoid dangerous confrontation. To feel like I can’t speak my truth and feel so helpless when I see all the ignorance that is breed there. I left in 2001 and still dealing with southern ptsd.
So yeah, no need to sugar coat the truth but most people are way more receptive to “constructive” conversation.
But it seems y’all are doing something right and we could all love the one we love —a little better, with kindness and tolerance-eh?
Ps I met y’all in Denver in 2002 at paramount theater, opening for Ryan Adams. You might remember us as the only people losing our shit dancing and singing. I was 19 and wasn’t thinking about the entire theater sitting down. Anyway, hope you forgot about that, in retrospect maybe we weren’t as cool as we thought. I love that y’all are constantly trying new things and it’s pretty amazing to listen to Under Feet Like Ours to present. -Kate
This reminds me so much of my sister and I. We are 13 months apart and I joke with her that I hoped she enjoyed her 13 months without me. Her opinions hit me differently then others.....is it the shared experiences and trauma and the strong emotions you go through growing up? Are we able to speak the truth to each other without the shit sandwich because they are your people? I like to think so.
If you both just want heaps of praise, feel free to send me your demos and I promise it will all be positive! 😉
Seriously though, thank you, once again at this little peek inside the creative process.
Ha! Thank you :)
I'm here for it.
Telling the people we love the truth because we love them and want them to become better people can be so difficult, especially knowing that it could hurt their feelings.
The love between a human and a fur baby is very special. I don’t have much experience with cats #allergies. But while I love my human children, sometimes they drive me nuts. My dogs on the other hand- love me unconditionally. I can go outside to take the trash out and they’re happy to see me when I come back inside. They love to give cuddles. My fur babies who are now deceased- one would sit on my lap and comfort me when I was crying after my ex husband would say unmentionable things to me and call me all sorts of names. He would lick the tears off my face. I still tear up when I think about his passing. (The dog not the ex). A dog is much more responsibility. You can’t just leave out food, water, litter box. They’re much more upkeep/ needy. But I wouldn’t give up my dogs for the world.
My husband is a musician, and over the course of our 16 years together, there have been 100s of songs offered up for my critique. Being someone’s “first listen” is a lot of pressure. Sometimes, I can physically feel the weight he places on my opinion. It’s a completely different energy than when he shares songs with his friends/bandmates. A friend could make the exact same comments as I had, but for some reason, when I made them, they hit harder and were construed as personal. I think it’s a good thing though. As uncomfortable as it can feel sometimes, I would hate it if he no longer cared. Good luck with this. Thanks for sharing.
I was always being served "shit sandwiches" by my college English professors. Submitting essays for proof reading and editing was always a point of contention for me. Every time I turned in a paper I'd jokingly quote Erykah Badu "Now keep in mind that I'm an artist. And I'm sensitive about my shit." My professors were kind enough to mark up my papers in purple or blue ink instead of red. I was usually receptive to their feedback, but I'd still butt heads and dig in my heels when it came to editing out parts that expressed how i felt and gave the paper personality. After bitching and moaning in my room for an hour or so i'd make some of the changes.
As a solo artist leaning into collaborative efforts, this thread of conversation you and Tegan are just now having on the creative process resonates so much with my struggles of trusting myself muchless other folks' perception of my work's end product. The struggle of the tightrope balancing act of being too close to a project vs. trusting your gut after all of these years...and then compound it with the trust gymnastics you have to perform with a creative team. Its a big ask, but in the end it'll work out. Either you outdo yourself or you fall and learn some new lessons for the next chapter. Glad y'all are making new and exciting chapters in a multitude of ways!!
Wait... you mean to tell me that you all have food allergies and body issues like the rest of us middle aged cool kids, and you aren't writing about it? When are we going to hear about that shit? Because as cool as a summer anthem is, I'd just love to know someone else fights with their body and being a sack of human goo too. Where's my, "I can't eat that!" anthem! Just saying.
Thanks for making me laugh out loud this morning. I was allergic to orange juice when I was a kid. If I was going to write a song about it, the title “OJ and Me” would definitely be misinterpreted.
LOLOLOLOL
Wait, have you ever written anything about Mickey and Holiday?
Pain and rejection are pretty good sources for art. But if the art you make is the reason for pain, things can get difficult real quick! I am in awe of your vulnerability towards each other, in your songwriting and in your reflections here.
Maybe substack is a perfect place for shit sandwiches :)
Ps. I got notified earlier today by my phone that 5 years today you were in Amsterdam playing at Paradiso! I think it may have been your last time you came over here? Miss you loads!
Hi Flo! I haven't written directly about the cats, no. I do feel passionately about them, and they were certainly disruptive to my life. I do worry about their deaths, but haven't found inspiration to write about that.
Isn't this a pretty common sibling issue. I'm a brutally honest person but I do sugar coat it when I'm around strangers or acquaintances. But with family and close friends and my girlfriend I speak my truth^^ PS the combination of audio and words brings me back to my childhood. So many stories I've heard in this format.
Perhaps it is? Feels especially acute between the two of us, likely because of our work/art collaboration. I am definitely more delicate with my partner. :)
So great to hear your voice and thoughts on the writing process for the new record as well as your reactions to each others feedback. Makes me even more excited to hear what you have created 🔥
As an “artist” myself (and I use that term loosely!) I resonate that sometimes you really have to dig deep and push through boundaries to find that spark that brings everything to life. And sometimes the journey is just as important as the destination.
Thanks for writing these. Really enjoying reading and listening to them ❤️x
You are most certainly an artist! :)
Love that Georgia could be a source for inspiration. Would love a post from Tegan with more insight into how Georgia has changed things for her, what's she brought into her life and what she's learned so far / about herself & her partner from having a dog. thanks
If I know Tegan...you will get MANY posts about Georgia...:)
Thank you for sharing your vulnerability and a slight insight into your psyche. It's all so intertwined, isn't it? As siblings, artists, creators, business partners...so many added layers of complexity to "make things work". I'm sure it's challenging and not rosy and fine and dandy all the time, but...to borrow a quote from the TV show "One Tree Hilll": "Your art matters." We all love just about whatever you both allow us to consume. =)
Thank you for engaging and being here!
Btw, not sure if either of you know, but Hilarie Burton (who played "Peyton Sawyer" in "One Tree Hill") is a huge T&S fan and claims in one of the "Drama Queens" podcast installment (where Hilarie, Sophia Bush & Joy Lenz talk about each OTH episode) that she desperately tried to get T&S to come perform in one of the OTH episodes but that it never happened for whatever reason and is still so bummed about it till this day. Maybe there's still time to make this happen in some way, shape or form... =)
I feel like the toughest shit sandwiches are always family, some are tougher than others but it's always going to hurt to have someone you love (or maybe not) criticize you. But it's always better to know they're telling you what it is and not what you want to hear so you can only do one thing. IMPROVE
My therapist used to say, "it's not about changing, it's about stretching" Which seems apt here.